OK, perfect example: you say "eliminate the drug and sex trades."  Despite reams of government laws, centuries of cracking down on such practices, why have these evils not been eradicated? Has banning opium ever stopped the opium trade?  Has making prostitution ever stopped prostitution, even with the threat of stoning?  Why are more children trafficked for sex now than ever in history?  You cannot cure these ills through legislation, and for the same reason, socialism in all its terrible forms cannot succeed by compulsion without total and complete servitude — and even that won't stop people 'breaking' the law no matter how noble.

It is unfortunate that you have not found any guiding principles to peace in the Bible.  The 'Truth' is more than a superstitious belief in a divine being, it is a 'spiritual' understanding of the laws of nature and our individual responsibility to act in accord with them.  The proof is in the pudding, and to those of us who are willing to put away our sacred cows in search for true understanding, the Truth has become self-evident, because it is not a philosophy or a socially engineered process but what is.  And you cannot come to this understanding without the freedom to pursue it and to say NO to the lies and those that oppress the truth.  

Your utopian ideals are based on a false premise, and nothing can ever come from them to fill a 'hole' that in fact does not exist.

Fred, the means to such an end (and history has proven 'by any means necessary') would be bloody and disastrous.  Shame on you for being willing to pay such a price for your utopian wet dreams which would NEVER come to fruition, only result in the death and destruction of those who would rather die than live in your socialist nightmare.  Your hubris is astounding.

"I hold no designs on any great office or title or possess any." This is not an accident — you are in fact NOT more effective than presidents, monarchs, or emperors, you are living in a narcissistic dream world.  You are ALONE, have no power, and if your ideas were followed, that would herald the end of the world.  Heed the council of the last known remnants of your friends: snap out of it!  The path you are on leads into the abyss.

"We need a national housing project with everyone living in the same basic sheltering guidelines. No individual is afforded or according anymore valued living quarters than anyone else. " NO, NO, a thousand times, NO!  See the former USSR where this was put into practice — it is the very definition of tyranny and servitude!  It is the gospel of envy and the curse of ignorance.

So what?  You brought up sex and drugs into the debate.  It has nothing to do with "demonizing those who produce, subsidizing those who refuse to produce, and canonizing those who complain."  You are the biggest complainer I have ever heard, yet won't/can't address a simple response to your complaint.  By just saying "well, I'm unconventional, not like you guys" that doesn't mean you are right (again, another logical fallacy).

Classical liberalism is THE defender of the unconventional, not the Marxist claptrap you continually spout.  Only Liberty lets the unconventional be — that is unless the unconventional insists that the rest adopt his/her conventions — the compulsion to oppress others with an ideology is in fact quite conventional among monarchs, dictators, social engineers, communists, 'progressive' liberals and every other form of would-be rulers 'for our own good.'

Lord knows I have been trying with you, Fred, but horses can be led to water, you just can't make them drink.

I believe you can click on the link to the article from which this quote originated... As expected it was in reference to printing up more money (i.e. borrowing at interest) to shore up Social Security.

Hmm, if only there was a way to use some form of token in exchange for labor and property instead of borrowing for our daily necessities... I've got it, a credit card with no limit!  LOL, Fred, credit is debt!

Actually there is a system, and is mandated by law in America.  It's called gold and silver which can't be printed up out of nothing.  I'll repeat myself for the umpteenth time, every so-called 'dollar' in circulation has been borrowed — that is how 'money' today is minted, it is 'borrowed' into circulation, it is called 'monetizing debt' which quite simply is using interest-bearing IOUs as money (like the money created by a credit card).

The national 'debt' is the largest chunk of the money in circulation, the rest is created by private banks (and even the Federal Reserve is a private bank consortium) — mortgage debt, credit card debt, corporate debt, car loans, and student loans.  That's 99% of the money supply right now, plus all the derivatives and banking tricks that treats new debt as a deposit for backing even newer debt, on and on.  All that debt IS THE MONEY SUPPLY, there is no 'money' that is not a debt!  AND the total debt owed far exceeds all the money in circulation — the government is even borrowing to pay interest on debt. 

This Ponzi scheme has bankrupted the world!  You can't use the system to fix the system — this is the system, and it is working as designed, to indenture the entire world to the cartel of central banksters.

Did you know that only countries in debt to their central banks could be members of the UN?  The UN is the parliament of the central bankers.  Remember when Switzerland was 'neutral'?  That was because it continued to use a hard currency, not a fiat currency.  How about the Arab nations?  Until a few years ago, they still used the gold dinar as their currency, but one by one as they were conquered by the 'West' they adopted fiat currencies and their populations thrown into poverty.

One gold coin can facilitate an infinite number of transactions, it does not lose its intrinsic value; however, a Federal Reserve Note is an interest-bearing debt instrument, known as commercial paper, and it is like using a leaky vase to exchange water, it eventually becomes nearly worthless.  The US 'dollar' buys what a nickel could buy less than a hundred years ago.  A $50,000 house in 1960 now costs a million dollars!  An ad man in NYC made 15$ a week — now $3000 a week doing the same thing.

The solution is not an interest-free no-limit credit card or a guaranteed income from the government (which they will only have to borrow to provide).  We must wholly and completely divest ourselves from debt as money!  We must return to making a distinction between cash and credit — we must be given the option to accept cash or credit, not be forced to convert our labors and property into debt money. 

Pay me in gold or silver (or any other non-perishable good/capital).  Let stores accept gold and silver again in exchange for goods and services.  Leave credit/debt to the Wall Street speculators, do not mix paper and substance in the free market treating them equally.

Unfortunately, those holding the debt of the world are NOT going to let us out of our promises to pay.  It is the biggest and most powerful mafia in the world, and they declare war on any nation that tries to rid itself of their grasp.  We are living on borrowed time, and all that our illustrious leaders can do is kick the can down the road, they will be dead before the con comes to an end.  The people must learn the Truth or enslave each other, passing the hot potato and playing musical chairs at the same time.

Remember, the game of Monopoly has only one winner and then all the pieces go back into the box.

Who is the arbiter of what you call "appropriate"?  What about just plain right and wrong, good and evil?  Is there evil in the world, and should we not do what is truly right? Yes.  Has making rules stopped the criminals from ignoring them? No. How is appropriating the fruits of someone else's labors and industry in any way 'taking responsibility'?

Freedom absolutely requires responsibility.  When people do not take responsibility and insist that others provide for them because it is 'just,' 'equitable,' and 'fair,' they corrupt not only themselves but the law of nature: as you sow, so shall you reap.  Victim consciousness and the blame game (which you are quite adept at, Fred) are mere excuses for theft and slavery.

How can we do better?  Great question!  My take is how to empower people to take responsibility rather than place their burdens on others or the state?  Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day, teach him to fish, and he can feed himself forever.  Socialism treats people as powerless, and individuals who are not are a threat and must be brought to heel so that wiser council members (who produce nothing) can regulate them.

Take a long penetrating look at the history of the Soviet Union, communist China & Cuba, the socialist dictators in Central and South America — the common people are reduced to poverty, their countries loaded with unpayable debts until barrels full of currency can't buy a loaf of bread.  It is not due to the common people but due to their leadership, all of whom spout the same rhetoric you do, Fred.  Crap may be plentiful but it is not nourishing.

If that is truly the case, Fred, you will have to start speaking English.  "Socialism has been apart of the swindle or scam procedures" — do you mean 'apart' or 'a part'?  What swindle?  What scam? What procedures? What is 'our environment'?  Please come down to Earth and stop speaking in generalities.  It is only when you make clear unambiguous statements that the truth comes out — that your ideas are authoritarian in nature, and differ little than those espoused by Hitler and Stalin.  Seriously.

Strawman argument. (Logical fallacy) Since the "conventional individual" does not assert that 1+1=2 or that the world is flat, nor are those of us in dialogue with you on drugs or being manipulated, your attempted misdirection falls flat on its face once again.

You constantly claim to be superior to us and lecture us on how we ought to be.  YOU claim to be the guiding adult because we are mentally ill children.  We reject it outright, and I specifically believe you to be mentally deranged, and I am ever hopeful that you will get the help you so desperately need.  You are no danger to me personally, for you are but a paper tiger.  But you must be woefully unhappy and comfort yourself with your narcissistic ideas to keep the demons at bay.  Turn back while you still can, please.  Get off your high horse and join the rest of the human race.

Yep.  And Fred is not only religious, he is a zealot!  If someone else was posting as much as Fred does, and they used the word 'Jesus' as many times as he has used 'socialism,' we would call them a Jesus-freak.  Well, he is a socialism-freak — in fact, I would go so far as to say Fred is claiming messianic authority as well since he claims to be the ONLY person on the planet that truly knows what socialism is and is fit to lead the rest of us.  If that isn't religious, I don't know what is.

Fred, I hate to break it you, you have not shown any example of logical reasoning, in fact, your posts are littered with logical fallacies, demonstrating a most disordered mind.

You make yourself very clear that your version of socialism is no different than fascism (and every other form of authoritarianism):

"Social engineering is the pinnacle of human activity. To plan out our lives with precision is what makes the human a beautiful adaptation to the natural environment."

And THAT, my dear friend, is what the socialist 'revolution' is all about — and that absolutely requires violence against any who resist social engineering in all its insidious forms.  The freeman will defend himself and his nation against this appropriation of power. 

We know who you are, Fred, and what you are about.  You have been cursed with a lie, and you must lie to yourself in order to never confront the con.  We will not let such rhetoric and associated mandates from on high take root, claiming to help us 'for our own good.'  Let there be no mistake, you declare war on those that do not want your 'plan.' 

You are channeling Hitler, my dear sir!  I can provide you with ample proof that your words are identical, mixed in with the lies of Marx as well.

You have been duped!

Once again, misdirection.  You are as bad as the 'conventional' politician who will never answer a direct question.  Your tactics are in reality quite conventional and quite unproductive to rational thought.  You are completely full of crap.  Sorry, the truth hurts, I know, but your posts are completely without substance.

You might want to ask yourself why people "always arrive at some insidious Freudian" observation when you speak.  Maybe because you are nuts ...  I mean if people always come to that conclusion, either they are always wrong or ... Let me put it this way, which is more likely, 1) you are the only sane adult on the planet (which you have asserted many times), or 2) you are wrong.

All you have done is changed the subject.  You said "We need specifics of who does not produce, who produces, and who complains."  I provided 2 pages of examples (sorry, Editor).  You use needlessly euphemistic language (i.e. basic "industrial" interest of our populace arrangement & individuals in the conventional arrangement) {who talks like this?} — speak plainly and don't try to misdirect when you have been given a direct response.  

Huh?  What are you talking about?  I provided several examples, and drug / sex trafficking were not among them, nor do I claim that they are.  The self-delusion is yours and is plain as day.  Again, logical fallacies are not sound arguments.

Fred, your favorite religion 'socialism' absolutely requires violence — just witness the socialist riots happening around the country and the world.  Socialism is the great FRAUD rendering the individual into a subordinate cog in the machinery of the State. 

Social engineering is inhuman, whereas liberty is the most humane of all.  It is the socialists who lay claim to the labors and property of others, not the true liberal.  All socialist solutions require the confiscation and regulation of property and labor to the ruling class for distribution to the masses.  In communist Russia, only the bureaucrats had butter while the masses starved.  The failures of such systems are so massive, the only defense is that it hasn't been done right yet. ;-) It can't, and it never will.  The ultimate aim of socialism and its variants is to make the people powerless to resist it.  Servitude is their creed, and power is their god.

Like I said, read Hayek's book.  Too much to put here.  You either get it or you don't (or won't, in your case, Fred, so not going to waste my breath here).

Hence the 'nanny-state' that treats the people as children from cradle to grave. Ptooey!

For the very simple reason that the debt is unpayable — it is greater than all the money in circulation!  Welcome to the great con.  BTW socialism cannot even begin to fulfil all its empty promises without this endless debt system.

Wrong.  Both fascists and communists call themselves socialists — because they are!  They are authoritarian, statist, and anti-liberal in nature, the very antithesis of a liberal republican form of government founded upon the natural born rights of the people.

A truly socialist democracy is the centralization of power by 2 warring socialist factions, the 'left' (communist) and the 'right' (fascist) ever vying for the seats of power of the ruling class, which is the complete opposite of a constitutional representative government supported by the distributive powers of the people (individuals) across thousands of counties, 50 states, and 3 branches of national government that each are checks upon the other.

It is a typical argument of the collectivist (statist) that individualism is 'selfish' while in fact the individual looking out for his own self interest is the very basis of liberty.  Socialists find individualism a constant thorn in their side because they take responsibility for their own lives rather than bow to the whims of the truly selfish who lay claim to the power to dictate to others because they know better — or as you constantly remind us, that YOU are the only adult in the room, and the rest of us are children in need of your guidance.  I am willing to bet, Fred, you have no children of your own, hmm?  Am I right?

Hah!  We know what you really mean, Fred.  'The cult of individuality is misguided, but sometimes we really need an individual to lead us in the right way of socialism.'  When we talk about respecting the individual we mean ALL individuals.  YOU are implying the old con that all are equal but some are more equal than others...

Another bastardization of history from secular progressive liberalism.  The USSR, China, and Cuba are all democracies, too.  All forms of socialism inevitably aim for one party rule.

We true classic liberals are NOT trying to influence other people!  That is the very danger of majoritism, often referred to as democracy, but is in fact mob rule.  True liberalism is the defense of liberty, not mastering control over others through 'influence' political, hypnotical or otherwise.  The lust for power of the collective is the root of all evil — and daily the 'game of thrones' continues so long as there is a seat of power from which to rule.

Fred, Bastiat is talking about YOU who claims superiority over all of us as the only sane 'adult' in existence!  Talk about narcissistic...