Self control by the governed or the government is BS. As Nixon said trust but verify. Taxpayer's need to be audited as do government agencies. Being held responsible is a required fact of life.

I won't get it because I won't read it!

Your obsession with the words majority and minority and your negative attitude towards the former which is shown in your descriptions of fremzied majorities and masses is telling about where your logic comes from. It comes from somet type of fear. "Come let us reason together sayeth the Lord" he says this to all men alike. Now if we are all equal, that is equal in rights (of course not equal in all knowledge or expertise on a given issue) then a group of 100 trying to decide a matter will each have their say and then vote on the course of action to be take. The course receiving the majority or sometimes pluarality (a multiple choice of three or more options) will be taken. The solution chosen may be considered the wrong solution by some or may be absolutely the wrong solution in a scientific or engeneering sense but it is the cards that we have been dealt. Most thinking people and there are some move in and out of various majority and minority "campls" all of the time. Those group thinkiers who always must be in one or the other campls or look askance at one or the other campls are fools. Individuals thinking for themselves or of course sometimes relying on the knowledge and thinking of others cast their independent vote and there we are voila Democracy 101. No power has ever given us a perfect system to get around the problem, the framers did the best job yet and history has borne them out. It was not perfect and has been Amended numerous times which proves that it was not perfect. Let us keep it going and build on their less than excellent start.

So Bush and now Obama should release the pictures of the detained prisoners, I guess. Few of us speak or act out of a stream of consciousness, we do not regurgitate every thing that comes across our minds or within our field of vision. We process it, analyse it and assimilate it first. Is this quote to mean that all pictures and news should just run across our screens without the above process, that we all employ.

No one has ever really wanted to restore the Constitution. It was flawed from the beginning and the framers knew it. That is why they allowed for the Amendment Process. It was a dark document from the beginning compared to The Declaration which gave it birth. Government or The State appointment of Senators is the prime example of where the framers screwed up. Restore the original constitution, nonsense, let us keep working on it until we get it right. We are just as smart and just as free as the framers.

Democracy was and is the answer. The framers construction of a system where the state appointed Senators was a travesty (one of several) of government controlling itself. The Amendment requiring that the individual(s) governed must vote to choose their Senator returned the nation to a greater degree of democracy and control over government. Madison is correct and Americans have done a pretty good job governing themselves and governing their government. In 222 years we have had smooth transitioning of government, never a dictator or a resort to armed conflict over government. Democracy has kept it this way.

This recognition of the individual is what democracy is all about, each individual having his say and vote. Governments who deny the individual(s) which is to say the majority is always destined to fail, and has. Thus when parties get thrown out it is because of the actions and recognition of the individual(s).

The founders were right, the framers screwed up having senators appointed rather than elected, delving into the deep dark recesses of slavery and states rights etcetera. Lincoln returned the nation to the principles of the founders, The Declaration, and to a New Rebirth of Freedom.

My point Carlton is that not only do "collectivists" ride on a Trojan horse so do others, like environmentalists and non-environmentalists, right wingers and left wingers etcetera. Bottom line Hoover in this quote is full of B.S.

Thanks for proving my point Carlton. See even you cannot operate or think without first creating an emergency.

Some think that the great emergency now is to STOP OBAMA. or that "Obama must fail". I agree with quote, sometimes we need to just relax and think things over. Hitler rose to power on the emergency of confronting the new world order of communist internationalism. I give it only a two because the use of emergency to promote action and energy can be used by anyone from any political or issue perspective.

Calhoun was complaining about South Carolina paying or collecting tariffs like the rest of the states. The bill was the first public statement expressing the illegality of the idea of secession. Calhoun was not making a well founded proposition here just saying that South Carolina wanted to do what ever it wanted to do and screw the rest of the states and nation. It was just a self serving statement that probably helped in getting him elected. Read Andrew Jacksons address to the wayward South Carolinians. Warren is quite right on this way, way to go Bud!

These guys got away from the glory of The Declaration of Indepence to flounder like the framers in esoteric arguments about slavery special interests etc. Other than for Andrew Jackson the first half of the 1800's can be seen as the Dark Ages of American politics and thinking starting with the errors of The Constitution. The best thing the floudering framers did was to include the Amendment Process. Lincoln returned the nation to its first principles and to a New Birth of freedom.

You need to be a little more subtle of a thinker Warren. The Constitution is what ever the people want it to be via the amendment process. Where did you get the notion about legislative good intentions, you are probably right, do you know of legislation based on bad intentions. Fundamentally I am against borrowing and spending, I am for responsible people, and responsible government. You are a smart ass Archer you do not even know me. I gave a direct quote from my fiance, I would let you argue or pick a fight with her if I had any glimmer of respect for you and your mentality. I presented experiential information from my life and you made a stupid remark contradicting it without any evidence. You have also presented yourself on this site as a liar concerning Jefferson's comments about national finances. Your ignorance I am certain will never cease.

Anon I did not read your entire post above, I stopped at the "do we have the right to make each other anything". I immediately thought of Stop Signs, Red Lights and things like that. What do you think about being made to do those things? Depending on your answer I might give the rest of your post some attention.

Logan I think you miss a subtle understanding. If all men are created equal or at least in the politcial sense entitled to a say and a vote and a voice, then all mens votes taken together equal to the best extent possible the will of most men. Would we prefer that these equal creatures be ignored when they vote. The framers floundered somewhat in their writing of the Constitution and they admitted that they might, thus they instituted the Amendment Process. The document which set this land and its people on its way was and is the Declaration. The Aristocratic framers errors have been corrected by amendment such as the direct election of senators, presidents, elimination of slavery etcetera. The Nation suffered under the errors for the best part of the 1800's but then the immortal Lincoln returned us back to the bedrock of the Declaration and a New Birth of Freedom. The Constitution is what the people say it is by virtue of the amendment process. The individual, in his participation and inclusion in the people, is King in the USA.

Mike your representative can do anything he wants to do and you can fire him at his next election. No one has ever implied that the majority makes for right, but the majority has a right to be wrong also. And they often are. That is the majorities priviledge. Look what our majorities did to the Everglades etcetera. I have never implied that minorities or the lonely voice should not be heard, only that they should not dictate. Our allegiance to the Flag includes are acceptance of the persons whom the majority puts in office, we can still disagree. Some 49 percent of us or so are in disagreement all of the time such is the face of democracy. As Churchill said it is a lousy system but better than any other.

Logan brevity may be more than just the sould of wit. It may be the soul of truth also. Your verbosity destroys any attempt at truth you might be wishing to make. In another place the bard said "I thinketh thou protest a little to much."

Logan et al, if you do not believe we are a democracy or you do not want us to be a democracy how do square your belief or your disdain for democracy with your love for the statement "all men are created equal". That statement is the heart and soul of democracy. Now while the framers were a little bit conservative and tilted towards aristocracy, the founders in the Declaration with that statement and the "inalienable rights" clause tilted completely and unabashedly towards full flung democracy.

We are one nation, one people, one militia, and one Commander In Chief, one Supreme Court, one Constitution, Union forever. I was talking to Anon, Mike why don't you get a life.

Logan google williampmeyers.org/republic.html it may clear up some of your fussy thinking. It is also straight forward about American History. Certainly the two terms can and do co-exist. The ability to amend the Constitution is a straight forward 100% democratic procees, maybe circuitous and drawn out with each state being involved but just the same "we the people" can change or amend the constitution at will, if we have the will. It is thus not a one time sacred document written in stone. PS: If you believe that we cannot do that does it upset you, Are we free if we cannot change or amend the thing. It would appear that we could be considered slaves to the thing or the the founders, get real we are not slaves to the Constitution and the founders never intended us to be. The Constitution is our guinding star not an albatross around our necks.

Anon the best thing I have read from you "Mankind really are in the majority good people at heart". Generally all I hear on this site is a fear of majorities a disdain of the word people in favor of a love for the word individual. I am considered by many friends and acquaintances of being one of the most individualistic persons they know. My fiance said this morning that people well be jealous or resentful of us because we are doing whatever we want to do. I am personally within the means available to me pretty free spirited, That being said I am not so naive to believe that I exist in the community or the world alone. My views,interests and concerns about the world in which I live comes together with all others to form the people. Those who are so fearful of their individuality because they have not really expericed it can also not be very comfortable being "with the people".

Anon, the Constitutional role of the President as Commander in Chief was explained and codified by the Militia Act of 1903. All men between the ages of 17 and 45 are part of the militia. They may be in the National Guard in which case they are organized. If they are not in the National Guard then they are ipso facto part of the unorganized militia. Thus all male citizens between those ages are militia guardians of our great nation under the leadership of The Commander in Chief. I think it is great apparently you may seem to think otherwise.

Ames believes the country is the land, Logan believes the country is the individual(s). I believe the country is the individual(s) who form the people. The minority were and may still be the chief owners of the property in Mexico and much of South America and dispossesed the natives, like we did to the Indians. So you call us European stock the true lovers of the country and the dispossed the greedy majority. Very interesting. I am thrilled that you all find be obnoxious and an affront to your unthinking lock step mintalities. Keep thinking and use your brains, maybe even get an education it would be good for y'all. The USA is a Democratic Republic Logan, check it out. Republic designates that within a territroial boundary the residents thereof our free of outside influence concerning their government. Now that republic's government could be dictatorship, aristocracy, monarchy, plutocracy etcetera, The USA has chosen Democracy. Prior to the current meaning of republic it however had a much more radical meaning as in the French Republic, "off with their heads, seize their property, crush the church" etc. The great majority of the people took over from the special interests of King, nobels, and church.

Whoe is sovereign Mike you or The Lord. Now don't double talk, only one of you can be sovereign, make your choice.