We have swallowed the Reagan Republican line "tax and spend Democrats" and thus elected him and them and they put us into 10 trillion dollars debt. Tax and spend is better than what they did borrow and spend. Now as Jefferson said it is time for our oppression. We must tax and pay off the debt. Robert who is going to examine or audit those income tax and sales tax returns. Nothing gets done without enforcement, you know like bank auditors and stuff. States have sales tax auditors. Law is a living thing. The reason it seems complex is because each new set of law makers tinker with it. I once made an effort at making and selling a food product wholesale. I had to research city, county and state law. City laws apply to restaurants, county laws I forget, and then state laws to wholesale food production. Laws and amendments pile up over the years. But there is no solution to this concept of living law because it is written by successions of living men. If we had one astute person say a dictator who would just lay it down for us to follow for the res of eternity then wouldn't that be nice. I mean for the simpletons among us that would be nice. The tax code is not nearly as complex as you wish to think it is. Most of it does not apply to you so you don't have to worry about that part, like if you are not an avocado or hazlenut grow ignore that section. Don't try to understand things you don't need to understand. Taxes were substantially reduced by Bush while things were going along nicely at the end of Clinton's term, surpluses as far as the eye could see and a pay off of our 4 trillion dollar debt by in ten years - 2010. Well we elected a borrow and spend President and we did exactly what he wanted to do borrow and spend, By 2010 we will be 10 trillion dollars in debt. The rich the Chineese and the Russians are getting rich and richer off that debt as we the American people pay them their interest.

You are funny Archer really funny. Sadly that is all that you are.

Good stuff Paul, thanks. Being called a Commuist by the likes of Carlton is an honor and a priviledge. Those on this site who cannot intelligently discuss the quotes of men of history without name calling are not free men at all. They are J Edgar Hoover clones and the enemies of true intellectual freedom.

Let us get started to pay the debt we have racked up. Jefferson is right and it is time for our wretchedness and oppression. Thanks to Reagan/Bush/Bush we have more than earned it. Since we were stupid enough to suffer them now we must suffer ourselves for our stupidity.

Aw the simpler times of the 1750's. I wonder what Dear Adam would have said if he had seen the hovels, poverty and degradation that the industrial age wrought upon England, with 60 hour work weeks, childhood labor, sweat shops, and all the rest of the excesses of rampant and totally free capitalism. We did not develop state law out of a sense of whim. It came about as a result of the misery index and as a view towards creating a decent life and evironment in which human beings can live and prosper. With the problems and issues created by large corporations and big business which are not individuals the individual is at a loss as how to proceed without banning together through government or unionism.

What a man! He is right on. Reagan/Bush/Bush has put us into debt and now we must be taxed to pay for it. Jefferson is prophetic. We will have more freedom and money once we pay off our debt, lets get started!

Good stuff Terry, thank you. As far as quote I can only say absolutely, and duh! The other day Marx was quoted as being against child labor, so I am with Marx on that. Mussolini spoke of the state (ie society or nation) will be all inclusinve giving space to all values etc, sort of a big tent, so I am with Mussy on that.

Liberals believe in freedom of expression. Since I am able to read, discuss and dissect, Mussolini, Marx etcetera with an open mind and agree with Marx when he says that he is against child labor etcetera, I am showing myself to be a free and open minded person. That is important to me. You guys are the lock step creatures who cringe in your dunce corners and the mention of a name as these. You are not believers in freedom, liberty or free thought. You are ripe for a fascist leader like Rush to lead you as if you had a ring in your nose.

Fascist and communist sometimes say good things. If I and the communists are agaisnt child labor and that therefore makes me a communist so be it.

Blather not at all mi amigo. Mussy said that the society ie state iis a big tent, it includes all opinions, views and human and sprititural values, What a great polictical statement. A big tent rather than a narrow focus is liberty and freedom and freedom of expression. Now did he walk the talk, I don't think so, but the talk ain't all that bad except the totalitarian part. Warren your narrow views are fascist, but maybe you just don't talk or write well and your reality is different than your talk.

Folk throw words around so readily. Those on this site who abhor liberals would appear to be in bed with Benito. While his other quotes sound reasonable where these guys always fail is their addiction to totalitarian-ism. I submit that in many minds being liberal and having liberty are compatible. But being conservative or right wing is being fascist and anti-liberty.

Benny sounds so good and logical. His grammar and syntax can be read as polemic (prosyletising) or just as a truism. Throughtout history we can find times when artisans, craftsmen, and industries responded to and were held somewhat accoutable to the state be it a monarch, duke or earl. During WWII the Feds molded private enterprise to supply the needs of the war effort. Private enterprise, and capitalism are tools to fulfill the needs of people. They are not conceptions or constructs that are more sacred than people or the individual. If they step on or crush the people or the individual (as in child labor or negligent mining practices or criminally shoddy or dangerous products) the people or the individual in the form of the state should have something to say about it. If not in the form of the state in some other form that I know not of.

This may be read not as a political statement or wish list but as a truism. Like Adam Smith's invisible hand in economics, the life of the individual in any society or social order (be it aboriginal, Native American. or thoroughly modern man) is shaped by the invisible hand of mores, custom, culture, media etcetera. We do not choose to be born in China, Afghanistan or America but are shaped in our outlooks and beliefs by place of birth or state in which we are born unintentionally or otherwise.

Is your mother or father a communist when they tell you to get a job. Are you a communist when you expect people to work for a living? Are you a communist when you are against child labor, prostitution etcetera? In value system it seems like Marx had some good ideas or at least stole and advanced some good ideas.

America is neither socialist or capitalist. Some have called it "state capitalism". I call it pragmatism.

Absolutely True! This quote is not about government oppression it is about the waywardness of human nature and their penchant for law breaking. Obviously if we did away with all law we would have no "oppressive" governments, federal, state or local. The fact that we have more government than we wish to have is due to the fact that we are (or at least some of us) a stiffnecked, wayward people. Government is not the oppressor it is the those who prey upon us, the murderer, the drug dealer, the hit and runners, etc, etc, etc. If we would all become self-governed, do right people formal government would shrink away.

The fact that we still study and read Marx would seem to say that he was some kind of stalwart in economic history. Many of his "reforms" have been undertaken around the world. Mexico had land reforms I believe before and after Marx, where little people were able to get some part of the land that the Europeans stole when they came there. The slave farms of the south went into share cropping etcetera. We have changed in America where the work force has been swelled by women, they use to stay at home. Now they are not forced or obligated but work is an ennobling activity and people get pleasure from achieving something through work. Child labor laws have enhanced the lives of children in America. So no one is perfect, all good or all evil. Don't read Marx from an ad hominem attitude but read and understand him give him the same degree of respect (even if you disagree) you want for your own opinions and see what it is he had to say.

PS: If y'all want to win any argument just call the opposing side socialist or communist, that will turn the trick for you.

Shows how balanced the IRS is. This guy was the commissioner and he didn't like income taxes. We got to get away from this boogey man about socialism and communism. Since virtually every industrialized nation we know, all of our European friends etcetera have the income tax there must be something good to be said for it, why else for goodness sake does everyone have it. Robin Hood may have been in real life the Earl of Locksley who knew how the poor were oppressed by Bad King John. He was loved by his people and is still revered by the English for his progressive thinking and his humanity.Without the poor there would not be any rich. Where do you think the rich get there money if not by cornering the market on the poor. All this current bruhaha about a tax increase that will simply return us to the tax regimine under Clinton which included balanced and surplus budgets and thus a pay done on the Reagan/Bush debts, is incredulous. As Obama said we must stop this awful defict spending and allowing the Communist Chineese to pay it for us and thus own us.

You are the one who suggested user fees Carlton. How do you suggest they be collected when you walk on side walks and drive on roads? A collection booth at every turn you make. Do you like user fees or don't you. Come clean man, come clean! Boo Archer it's me again!

Logan you answered your own question and are just too verbose and long winded to even know it. "a people constituting a government". You hit the nail on the head. The street lights and signs, the tall buildings and the regulations concenrng them and their elevators are all in place and in order due to the working of government. That government is benign, that is you do not see it, is a testimony to good government and to self government. More noticeable government only gets involved when people do more noticeable things like ignore the street signs and traffic lights that you saw. The government that we see is usually of a law enforcement nature. You seem to be a law abiding person (that is a person who is self-governed and within the laws established by your neighbors) and seldom come into contact with this law enforcement part of government. Unfortunately not all people in your town, state or nation are as conscientious as you and that is when a more visible form of government comes a calling. The same is true conerning the income tax laws. Every law comes with a penalty for failing to obey it. A penalty for failure cannot be administered without the judgement of people. Thus any body of law has enforcers be it policemen, sheriffs, judges, Tax Agents etcetera. Make some missteps Logan and you can get the government down upon you. You are however along with many of your neighbors sufficiently self-governed and act within the mores of the society and its moral suasion that more forceful or aggresive measure are not required. Thus you do not see government. This is good, this is great. For a fuller view however go and sit in on court room proceedings in your town for a week or two and find out what is going on. You will then have a better understanding and possibly appreciation for the more formal functions of government.

As usual Mike you are off the wall or have been hung up on the wall to dry out. You changed the conversation. People like to have utilities, the naive might stop paying just to see what happens, if you don't pay your bills on time many creditors assess a late charge. The fear of getting a late charge keeps many folk paying on time. Start ignoring your gas gauge and see if your car will keep running when the needle is on E. All these things are designed as warnings to instill fear of the bad consequences that will befall you if you do not pay attention and as Jesus was quoted last week, keep careful and accurate accounts. Call it fear if you like but there are warning signs to keep us on the straight and narrow.

I was googling Las Cruces, New Mexico today. Their motto is "People Helping People" is that not, if not interesting, at least apropos!

PS: The fact that the Feds are 10 trillion dollars in debt is the extent to which their services have been received without being paid for, it is time we paid up for the services that we have received, including the trillion or so spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. The government is busting their ba**s for us while we sit on our a**es and talk about the "fruits of our labor"! Unconscionable that is what we are!

You are raising a different issue Mike. The issue raised by the quote is do people pay their bills out of fear. I suggest we know that if we do not pay that there will be consequences. I suggest that the same consequences adhere to tax debt as to any other. Now I will address the issue that you raise, whether or not the income tax is taking the fruit of your labor. Under the income tax law it is stated that there shall be a tax on income from whatever source derived. Now that is the law of the land. It does not say "labor" only just all income. So the moment you have income a portion of it belongs to the governments (federal and many states). If you hold back the portion belonging to them you are stealing the fruit of their services. Like they provide you with defense, outer space research, legal services as in the Supreme Court, agricultural services etcetera. I hope you get the picture. Governments provide you service and demand that you pay for them, You may have performed services for others at some time in your life and expected your agreed upon beforehand remuneration, I now understand that you are self-employed and expect to be paid for your service. The governments federal and state expect to be paid for their services by the agreed upon beforehand remuneration as stated in the law. If you don't you are STEALING THE FRUIT OF THEIR LABOR extended on your behalf, like the 4000+ who died on your behalf in Iraq etcetera.